Left 4 Dead 2

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Fluffy Kitten
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Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Fluffy Kitten » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:37 pm

Anyone else somewhat irked by this news ?

In amongst the internet spazzing out over it I heard someone say "don't condemn the game until you've listened to the Rock Paper Shotgun podcast", which I gave a listen last night while doing some TF2 map Hammering.

Before the podcast, my thoughts were "Really ? A sequel that fast ? Hrm..." but after listening to "Chet from Valve" talk about the game, they changed to "what the fuck... fuck that".

I think my problem with it is that when I bought Left 4 Dead, I feel that I paid for 4 co-op campaigns, 4 versus campaigns and the SDK; all of which I now have (apparently the non-Beta version of the SDK is coming the week after E3, so technically I don't have the complete set until then, but we'll ignore that).

But back in November 2008 when I gave Valve my money, they didn't give me the full game... they held back 2 versus campaigns due to "balance problems" which at the time I was OK with. It was as if Valve had said "come on man, give us the money and we'll give you the rest of the game later... you've seen TF2, you know we're good for it", and I felt I'd much rather have the "balance problems" worked out of the maps and get them later rather than get them now and have them be terrible.

There was also the promise of lots of new stuff coming, so it all looked very exciting for L4D's future.

Then 5 months pass before the remainder of the game is released... and it's hard to see where those 5 months were spent as the majority of the versus maps look identical to their co-op counterparts. But then when you listen to the podcast, you find out where the 5 months went... a couple of minutes in, this happens :

"So how long ago did you start working on [Left 4 Dead 2] ?"
"Erm, really, right after the release of Left 4 Dead"

...which to me reads as if they released an unfinished game, promised the rest of it would be coming "soon", and then promptly went and started work on the sequel before giving people what they'd paid for.

The game is still a bit of a mess and it ruins itself (insta-tank, shoddy finales, a ridiculous scoring system, medpacks everywhere) just as often as it is awesome, but it was tolerable to a degree because Valve's track record meant it'd all be fixed eventually... except now with L4D2 on the horizon it doesn't look so rosey. And what's to say the moment L4D2 is out the door they won't leave it as a buggy mess and start work on L4D3 ?

L4D has provided me with some great laughs, but at the moment I actually can't see myself buying L4D2 unless it's released astonishingly cheap or comes up in a Steam sale... what about you guys ? What are your thoughts ?

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by snb » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:20 pm

http://store.steampowered.com/app/5268/

I can understand the disappointment about them "rushing" L4D2 when the first game is neither finished nor updated as promised, and I was extremely sceptical myself when it was still a rumour (chainsaws in L4D? No way!), but this looks phenomenal imo. It's something entirely different with the same basic concept and a more 'casual fun' approach to it. I still think L4D at its best is the best multiplayer game experience anyone could possibly have, but the seriousness of it, for the lack of a better term, made it basically impossible to enjoy with random online people and incredibly frustrating if even people you know made the same mistakes over and over and over.

Even if I'm admittedly a terrible Valve whore, I trust what they're doing. As much as I think they should have and could as well have added to their existing game instead, if you look at what they actually created eventually, it makes perfect sense to release it as a new game. It seems like they went for a new approach because they had ideas that didn't fit into the first game and wanted to move on in order to have a chance at making everything right this time, which wouldn't have been as easy or even impossible to do within what they had.

As for the full retail price thing, I'm not sure it's entirely fair, but on the other hand it _is_ a new game, and definitely not only DLC material as most people are saying. As many others do though, I'm hoping they'll release an "Orange Box 2" or some other package including L4D2 that makes it more tolerable. Either way; characters with a southern accent and hillbilly horde music? I'm in!

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by SMudgeh » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:48 pm

I won't be buying it for the exact reasons outlined above by Fluffy. I forked out for the game expecting great things, most of which haven't been delivered. It *does* have it's moments, but there are still too many horrendously bad ones in comparison to the good ones. It smacks of typical EA trying to grab as much money as possible whilst they can and not supporting the game properly. It won't be entirely Valves fault if EA are involved

NS2 is my hope for this year, if that doesn't play out as I hope, then it will be Forza 3 on the 360!

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Yeti » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:38 pm

Yep, what FK and smud said...
More over, its not a new game, they took the old one, and stretched new skin ontop.....

Ok, tweaked the AI director.... guess that takes work... maps? well, a 3-4 mapper team can finish 1 campaign map in a week or 2 (unlike ns, mapping is a lot less detailed, and is easier to balance).
new models, new voices, new weapons? all of those are easy....

Im sorry, but for me its not a new game, its an expansion, ppl pay for those... but usually they are not crap...

up until now, valve managed her status by updating a lot.... hl1 had what, version 10 in the end? around 30 updates?.... Balancing issues are always a cause for updates.... bugs that do not result from those, but from the retail version 1 game... shouldnt be a cause for a long term update.... should be fixed once, and for all....

I really hope NS 2 will come out soon....

shame on you SNB for saying l4d is the best... ns1 takes l4d any day!
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Fluffy Kitten » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:04 am

Just to be clear, I am fine with them making L4D2. They can charge what they like for it, I am not Valve's mother, they don't need to bend to my will. They do not "owe" me L4D2, but if they want me to keep relentlessly buying every game they release, they have standards to uphold that this makes me question. This time last week Valve could have announced they were making "Ultimate Takeaway-Chef Simulator" and I'd probably have immediately assumed I'd be buying it simply because it was a Valve game and would therefore be good.

When the full, non-beta L4D SDK is released I will have what I forked over my money for. Bonuses like TF2 has with all the weapon unlocks and whatnot are just that : bonuses. The Survival mode is a "bonus"... it's not a particularly exciting bonus as bonuses go, but it's still a bonus. Stop saying bonus.

Had Valve released L4D in November and followed it up in December / January with Dead Air, Death Toll and the SDK, I would probably now be thinking "I'll buy L4D2 when it comes out". But after being told they released an unfinished game and then ditched it to work on their next cash cow, any desire to whack the Infected with a frying pan goes out the window in a big cloud of "how do I know they won't do this exact same thing again ?".

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Yeti
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Yeti » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:48 am

guys, join this group, maybe it will change something, who knows...

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2bo ... ction=join
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by CheesyPeteza » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 pm

No way am I buying it straight away. I'll wait to see what happens.

Not impressed with how they have basically abandoned l4d because they have started on l4d2.

If they had made this an expansion pack for half the price of the full game it would have made more sense.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by snb » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:45 pm

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... p?t=886486

- full pricing confirmed
- no plans whatsoever on L4D3
- L4D1 will not be abandoned
- 5 campaigns with Versus/Survival support
- 3 new Special Infected, a new gamemode
- no Ep3 in the near future :(

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Rebellion » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:39 pm

Two words, one smiley
F00k that :knob:
(I.e I won't be getting L4D2)
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by princess » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:18 pm

I'm sure I'll get it if it looks good and there's a decent Steam sale on :P But I'm sceptical too.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by MaD SrsH » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:45 pm

Does this mean we'll be getting a new forum? I'm confused now :shifty:
I'm pretty easy to get along with once you people learn to worship me.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by CheesyPeteza » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:31 pm

snb wrote:http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886486

- full pricing confirmed
- no plans whatsoever on L4D3
- L4D1 will not be abandoned
- 5 campaigns with Versus/Survival support
- 3 new Special Infected, a new gamemode
- no Ep3 in the near future :(


Reading that article it seems they didn't set out to screw us over, but it certainly feels like it. They obviously thought after doing it the first time they could do it so much better the second time, but it didn't take them that long so should they really charge full price? How long did HL2 take to make, or L4D 1 for that matter... I bet a lot longer than L4d2.

The whole full price thing just on principle gets to me, meet us half way here Valve give the current L4D players a discount or something so it doesn't feel we are getting f*cked over.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by White Kite Fauna » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:38 pm

MaD SrsH wrote:Does this mean we'll be getting a new forum? I'm confused now :shifty:
You are confused by anything :P
I waited 4 month and bought it when it was 20$. So I did not experience the disappointments described above in long paragraphs. Why ppl pay twice as much for half a game...
Imagine you come to a restaurant, and they say you will have to wait 30 min for your steak, and it's 20$, or for 40$ you can get a piece of raw meat and chew on it in the mean time, but you still wait 30 min before the steak is ready.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Fluffy Kitten » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:32 pm

Well, no... if we're doing a food analogy, then in your example the restaurant has no business giving customers raw meat and promising to cook it later. In the majority of restaurants, if I know they're going to serve raw meat, I won't eat there (ie/ I enjoyed Operation Flashpoint and am eyeing Arma 2, but I heard Arma 1 was released as a near unplayable bugfest so I am waiting on reviews before buying it).
But I'd eaten at the Valve restaurant before, and when I ordered and paid for the TF2 steak and received a starter soup, the steak itself, some bread rolls, a dessert and a cup of coffee, I am willing to sit and eat the L4D steak while they finish cooking the vegetables.

Continuing the food analogy, the chef said the L4D steak would be like the TF2 steak in that it would come with extras... but it kind of hasn't. Plus everyone had long finished the steak before the vegetables were ready, because instead of finishing your meal that he's already been paid for, the chef started cooking a different meal for someone else.

And I would question whether you get the same game if you buy on release date compared with waiting a few months for a sale... if I were to buy The Sims 3 this weekend I'd get the exact same game I would if I'd waited until October to buy it, but with online multiplayer games it's different. If you buy later you miss the "experimental" stage where the game is fresh and interesting, and you start playing long after everyone has worked out what's a good idea and what's not. In L4D now, the Smoker and Hunters don't attack in the corridor on No Mercy 5 because we've played enough to know that the damage you can do there is terrible compared to what you can get waiting for them at the top of the ladder. Arguably, the game is much less fun when it's been played to the point where you're effectively running through a script rather than playing a game.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by ToastBox » Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:37 pm

Where is my zombiesteak please

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by snb » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:05 pm

Valve On L4D2: “Trust Us A Little Bit”

RPS: So is there any chance of new content like new maps and new campaigns in the original L4D?

DL: Yeah, there’s certainly a chance of that, and we’re not announcing any of the specifics of that today. Like I say, stay tuned, there’s more coming, there’s more information we’re going to talk about for the sequel, there’s more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly near term, that I think will sort of add to this picture and hopefully change some people’s opinions of what’s happening right now.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by CheesyPeteza » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:05 pm

From reading that, it seems they are a bit taken a back by the response. I suspect they will do something to change the attitudes.

I had an idea, they should make L4D2 half price for current L4D players. That way we are happy and it means people will buy keep buying L4D from now till the new one comes out as they know it won't be a waste of money.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by MrYiff » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:01 pm

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott

So far over 5000 members so were not alone :D
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by White Kite Fauna » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:23 pm

hmm.. i see i indeed missed the early play experience, agree with you here Fluffy Kitten.
...
Whoa! I just realized why some ppl order a carpacchio 8O for starter. :P
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Yeti » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:02 pm

tbh, i dont care any more, ns2 is coming out, will any one bother playing any other online games? (with the exception of fallout3)
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by AirHorse » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:13 pm

yes I will :p

I still dont totaly understand this huge deal thats been made tbh. I didnt buy left4dead because they said they would add stuff, I bought it because I played the demo(like alot of you i assume) and it was fantastic fun and I wanted to play more. I had fantastic fun playing it and tbh I dont ahve any hard feelings towards valve because they have changed their plans a bit, that hasnt made playing l4d any less fun than it was.

Considering the way that halflife 2 has gone with the episodes i really dont have any issues with l4d2 at all, maybe callingit l4dpart2 or episode two would make you less raged at them? Doesnt make any difference to me.

If its the price that bothers you then i dont think you played l4d enough tbh and then its not valves fault I think you didnt enjoy the game like many others have for no other reason than it wasnt quite your cup of tea. Ive easily got my moneys worth from playing l4d and I would have no problem paying for l4d2 if i would get a similar amount of time and enjoyment out of it.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by Fluffy Kitten » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:44 am

Again, (for me at least) it's not that they are releasing L4D2. It's that they released L4D unfinished and then started work on L4D2.

And looking at this interview...
"It just became very clear that this was a cohesive, singular statement we wanted to make, not a more slow update thing... too much stuff was tied together with too many other things. The Common Infected—now there is destruction in different parts of their body, to ship all the new Common Infected, even with an update, would be a huge thing."

So the team brought their concepts and ideas to create a sequel to Gabe Newell, and even he was skeptical about the idea. According to Faliszek, he expressed his doubts, and claimed this move was against the character of the company. "To Gabe's credit, and he's a great guy to work for, he said if this is what you want to do, if this is what you're excited about, go do it."

...even good old Gay Ben had a twinge of "this is going to piss a lot of people off" when the L4D team essentially took the contents of their "let's add this stuff to L4D" whiteboard and decided to release it as a second game.

It's like when you have builders in. Say they're replacing a floor... what they'll often do is come in on the first day and tear up the old floor, then sod off to god knows where to start or finish another job for a couple of days knowing they've essentially got your cash in the bank since the job is started. That pisses me right off and they do it almost every time.

I hate builders.

Terrible analogy, but you see what I mean, right ?

There is probably at absolute most a difference of one months' work between co-op Dead Air / Death Toll and their versus equivalents. I am yet to read anything from Valve explaining why it took them 5 months to finish their game other than because they started work on Left 4 Dead 2 straight away.

/me continues typing large numbers of indignant paragraphs.

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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by CheesyPeteza » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:41 am

That about sums up my feelings FK.

It is like they abandoned L4D within a few weeks of the release. Sure we get a few odd updates here and there, but nothing major like there was a full team working on it. I fully understand they want to start work straight away on the second version, but you should finish your current version first.

It's human nature to want to work on the next big thing. It's why I write a program then abandon it and work on a better version before I finished the first, or start an odd job then leave it and start working on another odd job which sounds more fun. It's not a good method of working and it's up to the company to say hold on we have to finish this version first before we start on the next. (I think I just justified my gf nagging me, argh)

Just 6 months of the full L4D team working on updates would have been fine. Polish it up then say you are done, leave some interns doing the minor bug release fixes while you work on L4D2.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by White Kite Fauna » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:05 am

What else do you expect from Valve? They are in California, where it's always good weather and beach is like 5 minuts away. Would YOU sit and and work? :wink:

Nah, I stopped complaining to Valve some time ago, even though the Lobby system makes me wanting to write very long paragraphs myself. It just doesnt reach the target :) Instead, I decided to reach Valve in another way - not paying for shit, that is.
I actually complained to EU comission when they made the prices in euros for NL. And they replied (i never read the reply though, as in the mean time I bought it for 20 on weekend sale)

The only thing that will be effective is to ask the money back. THEN they will start listening. But I dont have patience and time to start the procedure, even though I probably lose 2x as much waiting in the lobbies to get connected.
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Re: Left 4 Dead 2

Post by MrYiff » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:12 pm

Even Hitler is annoyed at L4D2!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQe4tlsfRbY
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